How to cross-train in the off-season

Coach Isaiah Newkirk shares the ways professional and amateur athletes can switch up their routines in the off-season to take a mental break, have some fun, and still maintain fitness and even gain some strength and mobility.

Some of these involve a bike; many do not!

There is a full transcript of the podcast below in case you prefer to read.

We have many off-season training plans to get you through the fall and winter, all of which are included in a subscription to Optimize. Use the code 25podcast to save 25% off your subscription now.

This is the sixth podcast in an eight-pod how-to series. Last episode we talked about how to maximize your off-season gains.

Other podcasts in the 8-Podcast How-To Series:

1. How to train at the end of your season
2. How to review your season in 14 ways
3. How to plan next season
4. How to take a proper post-season break
5. How to maximize your off-season gains

Upcoming podcasts in the series:

1. Weight lifting for cycling
2. Alternative weight-lifting movements 

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

(raw file; please forgive AI typos...)

00:00.00
Ben
Hey everybody welcome back to the fascat podcast Ben Delaney here with coach Isaiah Newkirk and we are talking about cross training and muscle tension intervals coach Isaiah how are you sir good to see you.

00:14.36
Isaiah
Great to see you. It's been a minute. Um, yeah I'm good I'm good I mean embracing the fall as we kind of talked about I Ah I'm ready for some chill time I'm good with that.

00:23.26
Ben
Indeed Tis Tis the season you know the the leaves are I'm looking out the window. The leaves are literally falling as we speak here and color changing. It's cool and crisp. We've been talking about enjoying. And necessarily time off the bike. Some people are enjoy like a different time on the bike. Some people are enjoying time completely away from the bike and so on this pod we're going to be talking about. You know what? what you can be doing to keep your body in good shape and your mind in in better shape with a variety of activities whether that's hiking or skiing or running or. Or riding so that's what we're digging into today now. Muscle tension intervals. We touched on that a bit in the last podcast isaiah we're in the midst of an 8 pod how to series of what to do from basically the end of summer through early spring you know so we started off. You know training at the end of the summer with coach frank season review with coach Christian setting goals for 2024 coach Jake how to take a postseason break with coach Ricky. We just did offseason training with the big cat and now we're doing cross-reing and muscle tension intervals coming up. Next weight lifting for sight looking weight lifting for cycling excuse me and then alternative movements to the squat leg press and leg curl should you even lift bro. So yeah, this is a big block of how tos if you've missed any of those and they are of interest. Go back and and check those out muscle tension intervals I saw.

01:56.77
Ben
1 of your project echelon mates Peter Onlychuck crushing the muscle tension intervals at gravel nationals just this past weekend where our man won the single speed category listeners gravel nationals was one hundred and thirty one miles as the name implies.

02:00.51
Isaiah
Ah.

02:16.68
Ben
On gravel much of it. Deep Sandy Chunky Gravel and not just dead flat gravel there was you know 5 10 even 14% pitches and Peter from project echelon was out there on a fifty seventeen single speed. I had 11 gears and I was looking for more in both directions among other things throughout so that was super impressive. What what is his story coach Isaiah who is also the I'm I going to mess up your title. You're performance structure of project echelon team boss 1 of the l hefffe at project echelon the uci i.

02:48.23
Isaiah
Yep, yeah yeah.

02:52.52
Ben
Road racing team which also includes you know FasCat which is Zach Gregg and Ricky Arnopol. what's Peter's story I was impressed.

03:01.95
Isaiah
Yeah I'll give I'll give him a big shout out I mean Peter I think and this goes really well into this podcast because I think Peter is is he's been doing it a long time. He's been literally racing at this level for decades so he um, he looks for. New adventures and new ways of training and new ways of bringing in maybe other things to train. Um, so he's a big Nordic gear. He does the burkee. Ah he does that's like primarily what he does in Minneapolis and in. Um, I've always been really impressed with his openness to try different things and new things. So story on on winning ah gravel nationals single speed is he he actually brought both bikes. Um, so he had a geared bike with him. Um and he prerode the day before if I understand correctly and then decided like this is doable. This is I can do this and um, whipped out as his single speed and and ended up going that direction and and gave it a go. Um, but no Peter does a great job kind of like embracing maybe stepping away from ah the norm or stepping away from just like what we are used to doing.

03:56.40
Ben
Ah.

04:09.59
Isaiah
And then I also think he does a good job like mixing up different styles of training so that he has the resilience to be able to you know, maybe do one hundred and twenty plus miles of riding 1 gear and or spending an awkward amount of time doing 40 rty rpms when all you want to do is spin at 90 um and actually have a decent amount of athletes do ah single speed work if they have the ability to like mountain biking. For example, um, there's no better way to kind of like mix things up the end of the year than having some.

04:36.80
Ben
Moon.

04:43.63
Isaiah
But he go out on trails on ah on a mound bike because it just it forces you to ride to what the bike brings to you Um, instead of like you know going into your biggest ring and and just kind of spinning up a climb like all of a sudden you have to attack it and go at it in a different way and just ride for the sake of riding and I think that adds a lot of spirit and freedom.

04:59.53
Ben
Um, me he.

05:03.12
Isaiah
Training and I think like Peter if there is anyone out there is going to be a ah good one to embrace that and and actually like love it. Um, so yeah, you got to give him respect for for winning that? Yeah stars and bars too. It's pretty sweet. Yeah yeah.

05:09.82
Ben
It heck heck yeah, heck yeah, yeah, it was a lot of fun I was in a group with him for a good chunk of the day and yeah, he was a lot of fun to to ride and race with you know he was having a good time and yeah would would laugh at himself when we were.

05:21.68
Isaiah
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, he's good at that.

05:29.46
Ben
Yeah, he was as you mid just like sometimes he was doing like thirty forty rpm just creeping up things and the rest of us were struggling also but like had a whole range of gears and his bike is starting to ping and cling as he so I don't know what kind of torque he was putting into that poor bike but you know or a couple times he'd like.

05:33.70
Isaiah
Yet.

05:43.90
Isaiah
A lot. Yeah.

05:47.23
Ben
Kind of a slither around in the Sand have to put a a foot down and where a lot of the rest of us we get frustrated and we're taking it very seriously. We're like cursing and Rah-rah grumbling. He's just laughing. You know they jump back on the bike and he'd be right back in there and coming up into Hills as you mentioned you have when you have a solitary gear.

05:59.12
Isaiah
Yep.

06:06.40
Ben
It's not so much a choose your own adventure. It's respond to what's being thrown at you and he would respond to upcoming Hills by attacking them. You know trying to get some momentum instead of just going the same pace we were where we'd shift them to a smaller gear and keep our cadence the same he would go raging into some of these Hills to the point whereof. A couple times I'd yell at the other people in our group like just a single speed. Don't like he's not Attacking. Don't try to follow. Can we please not go his base because that's going to blow me up. Um.

06:26.60
Isaiah
Yeah, don't follow him? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you you'd really it does make a polarized effort and you have to otherwise you end up walking. So um, yeah I mean it Actually we just did a coaching roundtable. Um.

06:36.88
Ben
Yeah.

06:44.31
Isaiah
Actually just got off it and we used these to talk about different topics and try and grow as coaches and and expand education within our knowledge and share so with the oncoming cross season. That was what the topic was and um, we were talking about like different approaches and and how that could how that could vary for massive athlete and a good one. Um, for athletes that are maybe wanting to use cross to like hone in on their skills or um are wanting to use it as just something different to fun. A good way of of challenging yourself in ah in a different way and and or if you have like a really competitive um cycle cross community locally like here in Colorado like it's silly. Um, do single speed. It makes you think it makes you ride to your bike again. It simplifies things um and is a ton of fun. So ah, and it really forces you to nail ah technical aspects because you can't rely on your bike as much.

07:40.72
Ben
Yeah, know that's that's a great point and I was you know but I say with your your results may vary not all of us can bring 2 bikes to one hundred and thirty one mile race but yeah I'm gonna run the single you know like that's that's kind of otherworldly.

07:43.18
Isaiah
So that's yeah, just fun idea. Um.

07:54.66
Isaiah
Um, yeah, yeah.

07:58.83
Ben
But we can just even like our local lunch loop get do it on ah on a single speed and yeah, just yeah, switch it up and and have fun with it I need to do.

08:01.76
Isaiah
Totally yeah.

08:12.31
Ben
Our formula our regular podcast formula of doing our review of the week I'm just getting carried away in the in the chat here. Um, this review of the week comes from Brandon Van Baggin who says I've been with fastcat for 3 years now and have been following the thirty week offseason as well as road race and criterion plans and let's just say they've helped me progress every year aside from injuries obtained during racing their plans podcast and coaching staff have helped me get back on the bike this year I jumped into optimize and I couldn't be happier the woop and hammerhead integration has made training easier. Thanks fadcast. Thanks fazcast Let's try that one again. Thanks fast cat looking forward to next year as are we Brandon thanks for riding in and our announcement this go round is please join Brandon in leaving us a review either on Apple Podcast or Google Play you know there's a lot of choices out there for a different podcasts and we'd appreciate you if you would do indeed enjoy the podcast letting your fellow cyclists know that you're listening to it and why so please leave us a review. Thanks very much going back to gravel nats just want to give a couple more shout outs. We had. Fasca athlete David Sachs there he was swinging for the fences racing for the wind ended it up of of an quite honorable fourth was stoked to see that and was racing against some teammates who were doing the old one 2 3 on David so.

09:46.66
Ben
You know that could have gone many ways and was happy to see how well he raced and on a rough windy day. Also another project echelon guy I don't know this Jim Mc Kyle Pittman won the parac 5 race that was a cool thing at gravel nationals as there was in addition to the. Elite women elite men all the different age categories including lots of kiddo categories. There are various para athlete categories. So just keeping that projectation on success rate rolling you've got some ah timers going off there.

10:21.20
Isaiah
Um, yeah, yeah, sorry.

10:26.28
Ben
Yeah, no worries. This is this is how we roll here at the fastcat podcast. It's it's live real world edition I want to know speaking of project echelon racing how how you're going sir on 2 fronts 1 um. The update on the Isaiah Newkirk Race all the bikes 2023 project. You know you've got the clunker. You've got the mountain bike. You've got the gravel track road. Do you have a time trial bike don't okay who phw yeah.

10:57.69
Isaiah
I don't luckily I got rid of I got rid of that one a while ago. Yeah yeah I know.

11:04.40
Ben
Those things are nothing but trouble. Um, so you had done a clunker crit So bring bring us up to speed is what I'm what I'm after here.

11:11.46
Isaiah
Sure. Yeah, so I um I did the classic thing where I was like I was doing I was doing all I was I was booking I was making it through the different bikes. Um, and then I do what I always do which is I there's like a huge chunk of the summer where I have um ah time where I'm either in Europe or I'm somewhere else abroad directing and that's like that's a full pretty full on gig um, between covering you know all of my athletes and and then also directing full-time so you know I literally stepped away I didn't touch my bike for any bike for that matter. There was no bike um for a month. And ah, that's ah, that's a decent chunk of time. So then I came back and um and that continued a little bit. Um I spent some time with my lovely wife and we went to Chicago basin did some fourteeners and then all of a sudden. It's been over a month where I haven't touched any bike. And then on top of that I'm leaving like a huge chunk of time where where it's prime time to race bikes. Um so shout out at boulder veldrome Boulder Valley veldome opened up they are live and and at it and it's amazing to have that resource back. But um, the last 2 bikes I have oddly are my track bike. And a gravel bike. So ah, the gravel season's actually coming to a moderate close There's like a month left and then um, the track season's pretty much done. So um I have a very few amount of chances left and I'm kind of.

12:37.80
Ben
Yep.

12:41.27
Isaiah
I'm kind of worried I Yeah might I might fail um, the gravel one I can I think I can manage but the the track is I'm running running thin and there's also just like of course other weekend and or adventures to to complete along the way. So But yeah, there's the last 2 things left and I better watch out because. Man I'm I'm running close but I'm thinking the rad is probably what I'm to end up doing on a gravel front. Um, and then I'm Im fingers crossed that I don't have to like travel across the country to go find like the final track race that exists in in the but I will if I have to? yeah no I mean like.

13:04.61
Ben
Um, okay.

13:13.75
Ben
You could like yeah dig ah your Marian Skinsuit out of the closet and do a collegiate track nationals this weekend. You know there's there.

13:20.37
Isaiah
That's the funny thing is the one of my athletes is the director of the treexler town beldrum but they're done like after collegiate nats this weekend there. That's it. So um, um I don't know shaking in my boots.

13:29.62
Ben
Yeah I saw your name on the Gravel National start list and I was was hoping to see up there but but alas, alas you know yeah I was also hoping to come home with the with the.

13:36.52
Isaiah
Yeah I know I bailed.

13:46.63
Ben
Stars and stripes for for fast cat and came up one step short on that. But that's that's great. Great motivation for next year I'm already like ah rock you know, plotting planning. Oh yeah, oh yeah, it.

13:52.57
Isaiah
Dang. Yeah.

13:58.73
Isaiah
What's it was was the experience positive as a whole like how how was the first ever rival nationals. Okay, nice.

14:05.76
Ben
It was. It was super positive I mean I'm I'm a gravel mug half full kind of guy in general in that I am really enjoying going to different events but because they all have unique flavors and just it's kind of like a tourist thing you know whereas um.

14:21.49
Isaiah
Ah.

14:25.19
Ben
I Mean it's the same with road racing too right? like different terrain different people different. You know it's It's the the variety is part of what's so addicting about this beautiful sport in general but with Graveland in particular because it's so new we haven't agreed on what the heck it is you know. Like what what the gear is what the distance is should we all be racing together should be racing separately and so this was a mashup of some gravel stuff like the distance and the conditions. Um and the wide variety of gear like at one point I was behind a guy who had On. Um, not just tall socks but calf compression sleeves and no Jersey He he Had. He had his number his bib number his bid number was you know, taped or I'm sorry pinned to his bibs so he just was wearing bibs.

15:03.35
Isaiah
Nice, nice because why didn't why do you need? New Jersey no that's silly.

15:19.13
Ben
You know, discarded his cameelback and his Jersey and so like ah so yeah, but wide wide variety of stuff. Um, but it was more like old school Uscf Road Racing and that it was done by categories. So it wasn't just 1 mass start. The pro women had to start pro.

15:21.26
Isaiah
All right.

15:33.41
Isaiah
Ah.

15:37.87
Ben
Men had to start each surrounded by a host of modo refs so safety was a word I heard used dozens of times by folks and that's something that gravel racing in general can improve upon um, you know once these things start out with just a handful of folks in the middle of nowhere. And it was kind of like everybody watch out for each other and that worked pretty well and now that everybody is like 9000 people heard mentality takes over and it could be like a group ride from hell and that you just assume that somebody else is checking that corner before we all go flying into it at thirty miles an hour you know. Using the full width of the road. So um, that yeah, that safety part was was definitely there. Medalist sports. The people who put on tour of California you know who ran America's biggest races for literally decades. They ran that and it was evident like they had a mobile command center.

16:32.98
Isaiah
Nice.

16:35.19
Ben
Giant AhRv parked in the parking lot and we're we're in radio communication with all the police who were manning on the corners. You know they're moto riffs the last mile as soon as you got under dirt back in the pavement. Well outside of town. The last entire mile was blocked Off. We had a full lane with cones and police and then you got into the finishing shoot and that was all fenced off fully. So um, if anything it kind of felt like overkill Um, but I think that's.

17:00.40
Isaiah
Blocked off. Nice. Nice.

17:10.65
Isaiah
Yeah.

17:11.35
Ben
That's not ah, not a bad thing on the party front like it was noticeably quiet and like that could be because there was like self-serious nerds like myself they like I just want to win this jing I'm not I wantt drink too many piers I might not want to drink beers after but not now before so that was ah, definitely a different vibe than.

17:23.00
Isaiah
Ah, yeah.

17:28.32
Ben
Say like a mid-south where the beers and other substances are flowing from from like multiple days before like starting Wednesday afternoon type of thing. Um, but again, yeah, but again, yeah oh for sure. But again like that's like part of the fun of for me of gravel is just seeing all the different.

17:31.20
Isaiah
come come first yeah, yeah, yeah during the race. Yeah i.

17:47.33
Isaiah
Yeah.

17:48.00
Ben
Local flavors and so super positive and like the the best to best 1 you know like there's some grumbling like oh of course wasn't selective enough but like all the the races were like blown to bits by you know, mostly the wind.

17:59.17
Isaiah
Yeah.

18:04.41
Ben
And the fact that like the big motors were drilling it so like Lauren Stevens from ef and Keegan Swinson from hit squad one and like nobody could say like oh they just got lucky I got you? they yeah know they so yeah I was I was satisfied to give you a long-winded.

18:15.57
Isaiah
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great I feel like we should do a pod of or like you should do a pot of um, like future of Gravel or what is that changing and to be because I do feel like it's it is changing I mean you're talking about like professionalism of of like the event or maybe even too much. So.

18:24.40
Ben
Answer to a short question.

18:41.33
Isaiah
Um I talked to some medalist did Maryland so Maryland cycling classic is the biggest pro race in the us right now. Um, and they are. They are a professional entity that is what they do they put on these events and then I heard from a friend who works there that they are taking over all operations of us nationals. So.

18:43.16
Ben
Yes, yes, yes.

19:00.66
Isaiah
That includes downhill that includes cross countryuntry marathon like that's their next thing is doing marathon um and track all like rote everything? Um so it is kind of interesting that that's going to bring about like a different professionalism to that space and I'm curious if that like how. Yeah I mean Gravel progressing through calendars getting so full I'm talking to my athletes about like reducing their calendar to so make it a little bit more fine tuned and specific and um yeah I think it's is we are about to see I think things change to a pretty significant degree at least that's my prediction.

19:37.79
Ben
It I know I agree I think if anything like we've got ah an embarrassment of riches that there's we've got too many choices you know, whereas you know, look at here in Colorado if you want to do all the road racing. You're still only going to do like four you know.

19:42.60
Isaiah
Yeah, yeah.

19:51.45
Isaiah
Um, yeah, it's not the same problem. Yeah yeah, and I think there's like a ah fight for what's most important.

19:55.39
Ben
Whereas gravel there's one one if not 2 or 3 every weekend and that you could very easily burn yourself out. So yeah, good.

20:07.70
Isaiah
Because there's no,, There's no definition of that because it's not like there's like oh well this is the this gives you the most Uci I points or this qualifies you for world Champs. There's nothing.. There's nothing like that. So. It's It's just simply like well what do we care the most about um, what's the most prestigious. What has the most like. Press that we deem has the most press and I think like unbound is not the only one anymore and I think it's like all right? Well what? what matters and I think it'll be interesting to see you who defines that and why? yeah.

20:39.88
Ben
Yeah I agree you know Lifetime has definitely got you know Stranglehold is probably too strong of a word but they have such a big media machine and the prize money behind it for the series.

20:51.88
Isaiah
Ah.

20:56.29
Ben
A number of racers a number of the elite racers are prioritizing that 7 race series and that plus nationals plus throw a couple others and that's that's a full year for sure but belgian welfare writers another solid series that's going a lot of folks are prioritizing that.

21:07.44
Isaiah
That's a yeah, that's huge. Yeah.

21:16.12
Ben
Um, yeah, the gravel nationals had a $60000 purse so they came in and one year became like the the highest paying gravel race. Yeah what what? I'm curious to see is like how much or little those.

21:23.11
Isaiah
Event. Yeah crazy.

21:32.42
Ben
What steers the pros steer the rest of us as far as what we deem to be cool or bucket list or must do and there are some races that have ah a feeding frenzy to them like unbound and steamboat that sail out in a hot minute and so I think they're in a great position that there's.

21:51.16
Ben
Like forced not forced demand but yet they're they're not going to have a shortage of of racers but it's all the all the others where like once you've done it once? What's going to bring you back the next time is it to get a better time or you more interested in like going to see what'so over the next Hill What'so in this town and so. But yeah, again, as far as people who like to raise spikes. We've got sky's limit tons options. So.

22:17.34
Isaiah
As like as long as you want to like explore and keep trying new things. There's just there's absolutely like 0 limit. Um, whatever rural area you can think of. There's probably a gravel race there at this point. Yeah yeah.

22:31.82
Ben
Yeah, yeah, so cross training cross like yeah for for some people that yeah gravel is cross-traing like yeah Peter we were speaking about ah for many of us when you think about crosstraining we're thinking about maybe some nordic skiing over the winter or. Or doing some running or some people go in for rowing. There's all sorts of different things. So I'm curious isaiah what you have done personally and why and how that worked out and then also what you recommend to your various athletes from you know, like your project echelon. Racers and I don't necessarily directly coach. All those guys. But yeah, what? what? you'd recommend to uci level racers and then what you'd recommend to the the rank and file the rest of us. So that's that's a whole bunch of things. Let's just sort of take it chunk by chunk. What do you do? What have you done and why and how has that worked out as far as.

23:16.82
Isaiah
Um, yeah.

23:28.25
Ben
Yeah, teen yep for a great season on the bike next year

23:29.61
Isaiah
Yeah, yeah, I think it's it's interesting I mean this is obviously like a great time to be talking about this because it's that moment where a lot of people are calling it a season or calling it a year where they're you know, looking to next year like having a lot of conversations with my athlete about 2024 and what they what they care about and then. Um, that's a good place to start. It's like okay, what do you care about? So then how much time do you have to work with and then um mental freshness and mental fortitude and um maybe trying something different so you can maintain that mental freshness and mental fortitude. Um, or apply it when it matters. So for example, um, we are very I guess like 1 dimensional most athletes are it's just how we are wired um and cyclists in particular for whatever reason. Um, it's getting better but it's still that way. So oftentimes. It's like well either riding my bike or I'm not and I'm sitting down and um I do think that that culture shift is taking place. Um and especially in ah in a world like where we are. You know you and I in the mountains where there's so much to do? um.

24:29.56
Ben
Yeah.

24:42.20
Isaiah
But I'm from the midwest there was nothing else you did and you did nothing like you know you went to the bowling alley like it was there wasn't a whole lot else other than riding your bike or riding the trainer. Um, but there is a big world that you can dive into and a lot that still can benefit um and then there's a way of you know, juggling your training. To allow for that change. Um, so then you know I'm not even talking to like physical adaptation there I'm just talking about like mental ah change up and healthiness and ability to explore and and try things different and then once you kind of like think about like oh well, what can help that. You can think about well how does that benefit fit me physically or maybe even how does that put me a step forward next year um so you know this time of year is great fall wise just because it's still really nice out. It's not cold yet. So um, oftentimes i. Just using myself as an example and then this is what I you know, move forward with my athletes too but like hiking is a great one. You get to be outside. You get to enjoy it. Um, low. Ah you know fatigue rate I would say depending on what kind of hiking you're doing um is a little bit more impact driven. Um, and provides a little bit more I would say full body activation than maybe cycling does um and then works those stabilizer muscles works the hip flexers which is going to be important. Um and just allows for you know, lighter movement and half the time for us cyclists who like.

26:11.61
Isaiah
Maybe your family doesn't like riding bicycles or doesn't like riding bicycles as quickly as you do Um, this is a great time to just hang out with them and chill out. Um, personally ah when I was in college I had a period of time where I was in. Classic college student and um, crashed got hurt I had a concussion and um, decided I was going to start running because I had missed my window to nationals essentially by having that concussion. So I was like well I don't know what else to do so I'll just run a marathon so I um, decided to do that. So i. Awesome running shoes for the first time um, trained on the treadmill mostly did like a couple random runs and then just went for it. Um, and did it. It was awful. It was like the worst experience ever because go figure I did no running um, but that that actually got me to fall in love with running a little bit and then moving to Colorado I do a decent amount of trail running. Big fan of trail running just because um, again it it tends especially around here. You're literally half the time going up a mountain whenever you're trail running so it's less of ah of a solid you know 7 minute whole ten miles kind of thing and more like you're hiking a good portion of it and then you're running the downs more mobility more small muscle groups. Um, more agility and all of the above that I think just really make you a better ah all round athlete. Um, and I I freaking love being in the woods. That's like ah and being in the mountains is is amazing and um, sure we get to do some cool stuff mountain biking but like.

27:48.24
Isaiah
Sometimes is like doing a troll run is the the only way of seemingly of getting just out in the middle of nowhere. Um onto something that hasn't really been touched or maintained. So I really enjoy that and I encourage my athletes to do that I think the hard thing with running and I see this all the time. Um, like.

27:58.80
Ben
Um, ah level.

28:07.46
Isaiah
Throw Ricky under the bus. Um, so you guys know coach Ricky. We've all made mistakes for sure and every ah notorious thing to do out of the gate as ah as a cyclist just to start running and you run on the road and oh go figure you have this massive aerobic energy because you spent all year building it and. Then you're trying to apply it to a new outlet like running and then your the impact just hits your body like none other and it's like ah it's like a bus so then half the time they get injured or super sore because they go out and do six thirty minute um when they haven't run before and then they. Fall apart and then they don't run again and you see that like several times. Um, so oh nice, he's he's an honest guy. It's good. Yeah.

28:49.73
Ben
Ricky threw himself under the bus in the last podcast speaking about yeah, he'll take 3 steps running an age or himself. So yeah yeah I think many many of us have have been there. You know I think back to 1 year covering the Twitter friends where I hadn't touched a bike for a couple weeks and I was going stir crazy and it was a rest day. For the writers. We got our work done and we were in the alps and it was beautiful and I justsec started out for a hike and was feeling good and and kind of started trotting before I knew I was like jogging along like up and down sound of music in alps in my bluntstone boots. Just yeah, just loving and having a great time came back all sweaty and the next day could not.

29:24.98
Isaiah
Yeah.

29:26.61
Ben
Walk like was having to lean on the rails and yeah it was for yeah that just destroyed myself and I think yeah, many of us have been there and sometimes that's a lesson you have to learn periodically over and over the hard way by touching the touching the stove. What what you said about.

29:35.61
Isaiah
Yep, yeah.

29:44.67
Ben
Yeah, hiking being a great way to connect outside with fairmen members who might not be socycling. That's certainly the case in my household I mean what are you actually getting a benefit physiologically like you do you touched on how it can you know. Work on some of your stabilizer muscles and and your hips but like are you really doing enough to just trying to think of the term that that you and Frank often use to to facilitate physiological change.

30:14.58
Isaiah
There we go nice. Um, yes, and no, um, ultimately you know I talked about the the concept of athletes are are hot and cold like we were either riding or we're laying on a couch. Um, so in that regard it helps you stay active versus being dormant. But still allows for what we're looking for in a true offseason for example, um, or a cross-training period or a just like period of time where you actually do want your fitness to slip. Um, it keeps your aerobic ah engine active. Not building but active so rather than going full dormant and then on top of that it helps you move in a way that you don't on a machine you're you're stuck in a position. Um, if you're dialed. You're literally doing the same movement thousand times on your ride. Um, but in hike your you might be doing a squat you might be doing a lunge. You might be doing a step up. You might be doing 100? um and it it still engages large muscle groups that we need in cycling so you know quad glute hamstring. Um. Again I mentioned the hip flexors early like usually cyclists go out and then they do ah a hike and one of the first things that they complain of is going to be ah tight or sore hip flexors um short sore quads from maybe the the impact so the step down. Um, usually.

31:43.21
Isaiah
It's funny I think like a while back at a team camp. Um on a protein I used to be on. We did a hike so we went and did we did a hike of a mountain as like a bonding day and then the team flew up the mountain like absolutely like demolished it.

31:52.43
Ben
A.

32:00.11
Isaiah
Um, because go figure. That's like what we've trained our bodies to do and then the way back down we were dying just because like the impact is just so foreign. Um, and it's you know as cyclists and as endurance athletes. It's healthy for us to um, you know make take this time to really make us more resilient. So that we don't have those issues of only doing 1 thing. Um, you know once the season actually begins. So it's ah it's a good time to kind of step away and try something different. Um and then it also is a huge mental step back. It's huge like we think hey we're doing something.

32:32.72
Ben
He.

32:38.80
Isaiah
Or you know you're going out and doing an eight mile hike like that's still mentally fatiguing. But then it's actually really that relation to um, calling it an interval or calling it on the bike that really causes that extra fatigue. So even that switch to something maybe slightly different allows us to to release those endorphins. But then not receive the same ah mental load that we might get otherwise yeah.

33:00.15
Ben
Oh dig it and I'm yeah I'm with you just being being out in nature. There's something magic and rejuvenating to it. Yeah not necessarily. Everyone's lucky enough to have the forest Arena right at their doorstep. But.

33:14.30
Isaiah
Um, yeah, right? Yeah and I think the interesting thing about like cross training like of course in our industry we seek the optimal cross training.

33:17.84
Ben
And just even like getting out in the park or just being outside somewhere is is nice.

33:33.55
Isaiah
And we want to throw that quote out into the world and be like you know what pickle ball that's it. That's the that's the secret if you do pickle ball. It'll increase your v o 2 by 3% but it's it's like at the end of it it it oftentime is just like okay, what are you are you trying to be.

33:41.19
Ben
Ah.

33:52.76
Isaiah
More well-rounded are you trying to work on explosivity are you trying to work on hand-eye coordination for for mountain biking. Are you trying to ah work on just like staying active so that you don't have this like freakout mode during the offseason like what are you trying to achieve and I think. Um, that's when you can get creative and you don't need to put a ton of stress into exactly what it is and you can say well I want to play volleyball because that sounds fun or I want to play basketball because that sounds fun like for example, my wife and I will go out and will play Horse. Um, just for a fun way of like you know, doing something different. And then releasing stress but then also at the same time you're like um, getting to remain active which tends to be the hardest thing about getting athletes to take a break is how do you maintain like some. Level of activeness and I think that's when there's so many different facets to what makes cross training or you know quote unquote trying different sports worthwhile.

34:54.51
Ben
How about skiing where do you where do you fall in on that you know.

35:01.35
Isaiah
Yeah, um, that's funny I actually had a conversation yesterday with an athlete of mine who um, he kind of stepped back from skiing the last couple years downhilling alpine. Um, and ah. He wants to get back into it. He wants to enjoy that part again and because we do we live in an amazing place for for resort skiing for back country skiing for Nordic skiing. Um, and I think it is a big challenge to help athletes juggle that um, and again I think skiing can be its own podcast topic but like there are different. Ah, there are different sports and activities that actually really do engage a similar process physically as cycling um and one of them is or several of them is skiing so but that tends to be. The endurance side of skiing so whether or not that's touring or cross country skiing or nordic skiing or um, back country skiing. Um, and I work with a lot of my athletes I would say 50% of my athletes on that exact thing. Um, another one of my athletes just started roller skiing. Um, and it's. All of those things engage a very similar muscle group as cycling and then really work your aerobic engine um to a high- levelvel like a very high level and as a result of that it actually can be a decent replacement for on bike time.

36:28.95
Isaiah
You have to teach the body to still transfer that to the to that machine and to that sport eventually so you can't just replace directly but you can substitute and it can inlongate that system and actually I think to a good degree boost um I need to do I've been meaning to do like more of an in-depth analysis on what that. Does and I actually talked to coach Elliott about doing this together because he obviously spends a lot of time on on on snow as well. But um, there is a good amount that you can really refine and boost through skiing for example and then it's just finding a similar capacity. So you mentioned rowing. That also does quite a lot within boosting. Actually you can tackle a good degree of Vo two max with with a rowing machine as well or actually getting on on the water. Um, so it is again find something that like benefits your long-term goals. So what you actually want to apply it towards otherwise it's not cross-training them anymore. You're actually like targeting that thing that you're doing um, but if you're using cross-train to really benefit long-term then you just need to find something that really makes that transfer and there is quite a few of that out there and skiing skiing is massive alpine or resource skiing. Not so much helps with the stabilizers um helps with.

37:45.64
Ben
Um.

37:47.62
Isaiah
Primary muscle groups If you're if you're doing a good job at it Agility sure. But it's also a lot of time on your butt. A lot of time on the lift. Um and out. Yeah Opera Ski is a big one too. So That's not super great for endurance athletes. But now it's It's just about juggling it correctly and. Um, even Res resource heing can be implemented into training schedules I think in a constructive way. Um, it's just a lot trickier.

38:13.15
Ben
Both my wife and I are from New Mexico where skiing really isn't a thing for for most of us and we moved here that was a mark of shame on our household like what do? What do you mean you don't ski bro I can't ski like you live in California. Do you surf around home. So you know trying to help our children. Avoid this shameful fate. We put them in ski lessons just up at the local ski Hill Eldora and then she and I tried out cross countryry there at Eldora which is at like what nine Thousand Ten Thousand feet so it was a rude introduction and I was thinking it could be kind of similar to.

38:43.21
Isaiah
Yeah, yeah.

38:47.87
Ben
Hiking the way you mentioned is a good spend time with your significant other doing something that is fun for everybody. Not just to put on stretchy pants and do bike dork stuff I. Got really into it and she was she saw it coming into shaking her head. She's like don't you go all endurance athlete on this like the moment you put on a heart you you know youre you're not putting on a heart rate monitor to go Seeing. No no, you know like no this is no longer about us This is about you. You know getting a heart rate monitor on putting on a strava like yeah so that kind of blew that up. Like oh I can do a fitness component and do a you know husband wife together time component. It was kind of an in our situation at least that became an either or type thing. But.

39:30.44
Isaiah
Yup, yeah I mean I guess that's always something to be careful of although here's a suggestion for you I have a an athlete that um uses a Bob trailer in her Nordic skiing training.

39:45.87
Ben
Yeah.

39:47.30
Isaiah
Um, and she'll um, well you probably know them. It's ah it's Aaron and Andrew um, and so Aaron Huck um she they will trade having the Bob trailer behind them and then they'll do nordic skiing together and then it's a um, it's a limiter so whoever has.

39:51.26
Ben
Oh sure. Yes.

40:04.54
Ben
Sure.

40:05.32
Isaiah
The trailer obviously is very limiting. It's freaking hard to pull anything while you're umks skiing So that's an option you could you know tow? Whatever you want You can stick a bunch of bricks back there. It doesn't matter. But that's an option there you go? Yeah yeah, perfect.

40:14.50
Ben
Yeah, yeah, put our little beagle in there. It's snacks. Yeah, yeah's something that consider at what point I mean this is looking down the road but but at what point do you recommend people.

40:23.54
Isaiah
Yeah.

40:33.56
Ben
Tapering off these extra bike curricular activities and getting back on just doing the bike is that just like let the the seasons you know, dictate that and like ask key seasons over. Of course we're gonna where you go to get back on the bike or or do you work with people as far as like starting with their.

40:47.10
Isaiah
Yeah.

40:52.43
Ben
Goals of the season then working backwards from there is to when you're like okay you with the Bob slit on the trailer or the Bob slit on the skateskes cut that out. it's it's march

41:01.26
Isaiah
Yeah, yeah, no I think that's ah I think I start with a couple questions and then I um that athlete that I was talking to with yesterday. My word that I landed on ah repeatedly was priorities. Um, so it's. Goals so you maybe start with your goals what you care about? Um, and that can be race goals that could be when you want to be strong and then you add in I think the word priority because um, it's easy to say well I have a race goal in may but. Really like skiing so I want to ski a lot and then I'm like okay well is your priority on getting x amount of ski days or is it on being as dialed and fine-tuned as possible and then where is your percentage skew there because maybe it's in the middle like you want to do both and that's fine. But then you need to learn or think about what the consequences of that are. Then if you're okay with that then great 100% go for it. Um, and then I think with that in mind it goes down to like all right? Well what are you juggling is it ah is it a positive crosstraining thing that has like a ton of benefits like let's say Nordic skiing. For example.

41:57.87
Ben
The.

42:13.18
Isaiah
Um, or is it more along the fun side and not necessarily as much but benefit and the more towards fun. It is probably the sooner you need to deviate or again, go back to that priorities and then you know you do whatever but the more you're fine tuned towards a goal and an outcome. Especially on the bike the more you need to deviate earlier and give yourself enough birth and enough space to really fine tune and be as dialed as possible. Um, because basically like for example, Nordic skiing for example, great crossover great cross training sport. Um, but if you wait two weeks or one week prior to your event to like devote yourself like you're you're only going to be as devoted as you made yourself. So um, then you have to expect consequences of that so I would say the more you care the more your priorities are driven in that direction towards your races or your goals. The more you need to to step away. Um I would say for my athletes to be specific because I know I'm being kind of vague there. Um, it's usually I like to give myself I would probably say three months of like devoted starting to to wane that. Ah, cross training off and and apply that over. Um and then if it's more the more transferable it is and the more I've found over time that it is transferable for that particular athlete. So whether or not that's strength training even or cross training. Um, that's when I'll give it a little bit more time.

43:50.92
Isaiah
To move it over like if I know that like my athlete that roller skis for example and he nordics as well. I know that he transfers that really quickly to the bike but we've spent years figuring that out. So now that I know that I can wait and I can give it you know two months where we'll start to wane that off and then for the very fine tuned people like Peter for example, I know um, he's nordics up to the point where he can't anymore because he's so gifted at transferring over that. Um, and then the other thing you have to keep in mind is like.

44:27.69
Isaiah
A lot of this stuff cross-training running you know whatever it might be um Nordic. It's a lot of skill and experience of doing that. Um, so using running for example, like Ricky doesn't have years and years and years running where he can just pick it up and do it again um. But I can go out and do it pretty much off the bat. Um, and and it helps so it's all about kind of like what that experience is and what you've learned to help apply it and the less you know the more you have to kind of lean on it not applying as well.

45:03.60
Ben
A letter.

45:04.72
Isaiah
And then just kind of give let go of it a little bit sooner and then as you get better at that and play with it. You can wait and apply it more commonly.

45:10.14
Ben
That That's helpful. Those are some good tips. So We've talked hiking running skiing rowing. Are there any other offseason cross-training activities that. Ah, you encourage or that some of your athletes have done that we haven't talked about.

45:34.11
Isaiah
Um, may I think swimming is a good one I'm I'm not a huge fan of it because I just didn't like grow up swimming. But um, the athletes that I have do it are find it really relaxing. Um, and they you know, just really enjoy it in general.

45:36.71
Ben
A.

45:51.11
Isaiah
Um, let's see what else man stand up paddleboarding. Um other things like that if you're more of a place that allows for that. Um man what else I think.

46:02.36
Ben
No, those are those are all good ones I just don't want to make sure with it. We I'd left something behind before going back to where we started with Peter ol theze and talking muscle tension intervals. So yeah, if something pops up, you can you can see yeah throw your hand we'll we'll go back there. But.

46:10.10
Isaiah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

46:20.11
Ben
For now, let's let's go back where we started mt eyes muscle tension intervals. Let's talk about what they are how you do them and why you would do them because often cyclists like to criticize each other you know, either on a group ride or just like watching. People when you're driving past him on tv like oh his his form's terribleized. Hes he's pedalant too slow. He's been too fresh like everybody is an armchair expert and cadence is 1 thing that will often heckle each other about mtis, you are using. Very low cadence. Not something that you normally do so why? Why do you do this and how do you do this.

47:02.25
Isaiah
Yeah, yeah I mean Mtis have been around for a long time. Um, and they ah really do believe that they are incredibly valuable. Basically the concept has has been mentioned is you're running a you're forcing your body into an extreme scenario. And the more extreme you make something the more you have to focus on that thing. So um, Cadence Dynamics I I think has become a little bit less popular. It was a big thing for a while where there's like all these different tools out there where you can focus on you know how pretty your oval is. Um, or I think one of my athlete calls is it a potato pioneer. Yeah oh that is some Isome is it. Isometric was that the yeah stupid cranks you can.

47:39.30
Ben
What were those? What were those silly cranks called but where they were not fixed at the at the ah I want to say like super cranks or stupid cranks something something cranks and they were not fixed together so they would they would pddle separately.

47:56.15
Isaiah
Yeah, you can rotate them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, ah man no no. Um so the the concept right? is that um with muscle tension intervals. You're working on 2 things you're um, you're slowing down your cadence to be.

47:56.57
Ben
So you could coat you could coast with both feet straight down ah bla What those called though that but that was like a not necessarily a high torque thing but a like a.

48:15.67
Isaiah
And an optimal range. Most studies are done kind of around that 40 to 60 rpm range so pretty extreme and then the purpose is is like everyone can do that that cadence range for a short period of time and we probably do it on every ride, but it's doing that for an extended period of time with control and deliverance that. Um, really changes that adaptation and forces that um, positive outcome. So um, a lot of what that is focusing on with that dramatized cadence is going to be a the full implementation of your pedal stroke. So um. As ah, you know, literally a decade ago I did a lot of fits and one of the things you learn and that's bike fitting and you do you learn that everyone has like a pretty dominant dead stroke dead spot in their and their pedal stroke and in fact, we have 2 it's usually the up and over part portion of the stroke and the the.

49:06.63
Ben
I.

49:13.19
Isaiah
The like scraping your toe portion of your stroke and that's not going to go away. That's always going to be kind of existent. Um and the purpose of having 2 legs as you balance that out. Um, but to limit that or be able to capitalize on that as much as possible goes a long way and that's kind of what this really forces you to do it forces to you to focus on. The entire pedal stroke all the way through and then by doing so you're isolating muscle groups more commonly so you can actually learn or teach your body to engage. Um, the glue which oftentimes gets ignored. Um, so that's that's a huge benefit there and there's ways of. Tracking. Um how that engagement takes place or if it takes place and a lot of studies present that you know if you do these muscle tension intervals. You will see that activation and I think that the transfer from the gym is increased exponentially as a result of that. So like we spend all this time in the gym. Focusing on strength and we hear a lot by our athletes like oh I just want to be stronger or I just want to like have more force and then you're like okay, cool get in the gym focus on getting an athlete stronger see that change than what so then using these to help transfer that over. Goes a long way historically and it's pretty well foundunded across a couple different study groups and yeah, so and it's all fine and Dandy I think most athletes learn for that 2 minute range feel pretty good stay in control. Not too bad.

50:50.34
Isaiah
Um, and then all of a sudden like around 10 minute range they're like whoa this is weird like all you want to do is again kind of like Peter all you want to do is ride at 90 rpms now and then you do and you go up and your recovery and then I have the athletes. Go I purposely tell my athletes to change to and ah a standard cadence realm during recovery periods. Yeah, and then they ride at 90 rpms and it feels like 120 like they feel like ah a god um, so that there's a lot of really key benefits there and it's a huge one to implement during your bases and as you're kind of building back in I think both within physical response. So um. Actually gaining strength on the bike but then ah form um effectiveness execution across different intervals moving forward because again if you go towards the extreme if you go back into the middle away from the extreme. It's easier. Um, and I think a lot of athletes feel pretty solid response in that regard. Um, and it does help bring to light. Ah, you know what their form on the bike is like and what their pedal stroke looks like and how to make it better because we can always make our pedal stroke better better but actually implementing that. Pretty difficult so these intervals allow for like an extreme nature again to to spend some time on it.

52:08.98
Ben
Back in the day like for me collegiate racing twenty five years ago whatever we call these struph like strength but strumph workouts of like just yeah, just grinding a big gear slowly up a long incline and fixes were also.

52:17.76
Isaiah
Nice.

52:28.59
Ben
Hot item back in the day like trying to at least in our minds Emulate What the Euros were doing and that would yeah sometimes would force you to do mti eyes just based on the train back to kind of what we're talking about earlier right in single speed and then sometimes it would force you to spin smoothly as you're screaming down a hill and you.

52:29.72
Isaiah
Ah.

52:48.71
Ben
Can't coast but that those those have kind of fallen out of favor I don't see so many folks on fix gear so much anymore.

52:53.00
Isaiah
Yeah, ah I think it It was okay so that was 100% like a very popular old school way of training was the fix gear rides. You just have your athlete go out and ride a fix gear. Um and they will it. It simplifies the training is the idea. And it forces you to really focus on form and again kind of what I was talking about with the extreme nature of like hot cold you're they're spinning out or you're you're forcing the gear. Um, and I do think it's great for that. But the thing is is like when that was really popular and had high um benefits. Was before the power meter was really part of of the cycling world and before intervals were really part of the cycling world and I think we've learned that hey we can probably have somebody just ride their normal bike and then tell them what they should be doing and then they can just ride to that power or to that extreme. Um and then get the same response without having a you know? ah.

53:30.87
Ben
Oh oh no.

53:40.27
Ben
Yeah, yeah.

53:49.42
Isaiah
To God and whip themselves around on it on a fixed gear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, nice. Nice.

53:54.16
Ben
Yep, and then like yeah coming in and through traffic lights. And yeah yeah I had a chain snap once on a downhand I was like yeah this and I'd probably be fine to just retire this contraption now at this point. But yeah, yeah, funny to look back and and see what.

54:03.84
Isaiah
Yeah, yeah.

54:12.10
Ben
What has stuck over the years and what hasn't and yeah, a lot of the base physiology is like it turns out humans aren't new to earth but some of how we implement implement the specifics is always fun to see how those have improved over the years

54:27.49
Isaiah
Yeah, and they still will hopefully at least? yeah yeah.

54:31.15
Ben
Yeah, yeah, check back to this podcast in 15 years see what we're talking about then well coach asai this has been a fun one I appreciate your time and and knowledge and I wish you all the best in getting those last 2 bikes in the speaking of speaking of fixed gears.

54:39.80
Isaiah
Of course, thank you.

54:45.26
Isaiah
Oh man. Yeah yeah, we I need to make that happen. Yeah.

54:49.45
Ben
That track bike raced in the gravel bike raced. We've got left hand gravel coming up here in October that's a local option. Yeah, the route would be good I hope to get down there for that one.

55:01.90
Isaiah
Yeah, yeah, if I so like that I did this with ah I got 4 other friends to do this with me and the the rule is if you don't do it. You have to buy those friends a drink so then one day we're all going to get together and.

55:12.82
Ben
Okay.

55:18.16
Isaiah
You know whoever will be buying each other drinks. Um, if if we do not make this happen. So um, yeah, we got pressures on it's time. Yeah, no, it's good. Yeah, it's good.

55:22.68
Ben
Ah, yeah.

55:26.60
Ben
Good, good kind of pressure. Good kind of positive peer pressure all right listeners next week we're back with the big cat Frank Overton talking to weight liftfting for cycling that's number 7 our offseason how to podcast series. But for now we will thank you for listening and remind you too. Work hard ride fast have fun in all your off-season activities and ftf p.

55:50.22
Isaiah
FB.

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